February 26, 2009

Israel On College Campuses

Many Jewish college students have been struggling with the way Israel is treated on campus. It is becoming more common for adversaries of the state to hold anti-Israel demonstrations and activities on campus.

Quite a few of these activities are not friendly gatherings of students handing out flowers and suggesting that we just give peace a chance. Many are populated by rampant antisemitic commentary and false accusations about the misdeeds of Israel. Counter demonstrators routinely tell stories of being threatened, intimidation is routine.

The demonstrations rarely are balanced. You don't attend them to hear speakers present both sides. They are hate rallies in which the speakers do their best to whip the crowd into a frenzy. They are part of a movement that is doing its best to delegitimize Israel and make it untenable to voice dissent for fear of repurcussions.

UCLA professor Judea Pearl wrote an essay that is worth reading.

...when an e-mail from a colleague at Indiana University asked: “Being at UCLA, you must know about this symposium ... pretty bad.” Attached to it was Roberta Seid’s report on the now famous “Human Rights and Gaza” symposium held a day earlier at UCLA (see “UCLA Symposium on Gaza Ignites Strong Criticism,” Jewish Journal, Feb. 11, 2009).

To refresh readers’ memory, this symposium, organized by UCLA’s Center for Near East Studies (CNES), was billed as a discussion of human rights in Gaza. Instead, the director of the center, Susan Slyomovics, invited four longtime demonizers of Israel for a panel that Seid describes as a reenactment of a “1920 Munich beer hall.” Not only did the panelists portray Hamas as a guiltless, peace-seeking, unjustly provoked organization, they also bashed Israel, her motives, her character, her birth and conception and led the excited audience into chanting “Zionism is Nazism,” “F—-, f—- Israel,” in the best tradition of rhino liturgy.


Point of information: In the late 90's I worked on campus at UCLA and have a few stories of my own about what was happening then. I was confronted several times by male students who suggested that it wasn't safe for me to disagree with them. Perhaps I'll share more about this later.

Pearl continues on and suggests that Jewish faculty members should have anticipated this and done more to try and help to steer the conversation so that it wasn't so one sided. He writes about the many dilemmas presented by a society that tries to protect rocket launching terrorists and decries self defense.

And he discusses how it has become harder to be an outspoken Zionist for fear of the repurcussions.

These are dilemmas that had not surfaced before the days of rockets and missiles, and we, the Jewish faculty, ought to have pioneered their study. Instead, we allowed Hamas’ sympathizers to frame the academic agenda. How can we face our students from the safety of our offices when they deal with anti-Israel abuse on a daily basis — in the cafeteria, the library and the classroom — and as alarming reports of mob violence are arriving from other campuses (San Jose State University, Spartan Daily, Feb. 9, and York University, Globe and Mail, Feb. 13)?

Burdened with guilt, I called some colleagues, but quickly realized that a few have already made the shift to a strange-sounding language, not unlike “Honk, Honk.” Some have entered the debate phase, arguing over the rhino way of life vs. the human way of life, and the majority, while still speaking in a familiar English vocabulary, are frightened beyond anything I have seen at UCLA in the 40 years that I have served on its faculty.

Colleagues told me about lecturers whose appointments were terminated, professors whose promotion committees received “incriminating” letters, and about the impossibility of revealing one’s pro-Israel convictions without losing grants, editorial board membership, or invitation to panels and conferences. And all, literally all, swore me into strict secrecy — we have entered the era of “the new Maranos.”


I am sad to say that I wasn't surprised by any of this. It is not so long since I was producing daily updates about the War in Gaza. In return I was repeatedly attacked on the blog and via email with some of the most hateful speech I can think of. I was called a racist and a nazi. I was told that the world would be a better place if I died.

People did their best to try and intimidate me. Intimidation is a central part of their tactics. It is what they do best. If you don't toe the party line, if you dare deviate then you are attacked from every angle. Physical threats combined with attempts to ostracize you socially and professionally.

I'll continue to advocate fair and balanced of criticism of all countries. Israel can and should be criticized. But when the Anti-Israel crowd continues to include epithets suggesting that Jews should go to the gas chambers and similar hate speech it is impossible to accept their claims that their criticism is not antisemitic. These types of attacks are attacks on all of us and must be opposed.

Unless we take action we are going to read more stories about intimidation at the universities. It is past time to draw a line in the sand and hold the universities accountable for activities that take place under their purview.

Crossposted on Yourish.

P.S. for those who are interested here is a link to some resources you can use to help educate people.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

If all of what you say is happening, and the scope of this problem is as broad as you say, then you have to confront the very real possibility that YOUR views are biased and absurd. We live in a free country where people can openly express their views, not a place like Israel where Palestinians are held in concentration camps and murdered every day. If everyone is against you, then it is YOU who is wrong!!!

Anonymous said...

There are also college campuses that are very accomodating and welcoming to Jewish college students. One such example is Rutgers University. The main campus lines a Hillel house, a Chabbad House, a Center for Jewish Studies... the list goes on. While I do agree that such occurances may be plentiful in the West Coast, there is very little of them here on the East. Each region has its own political and sociological ideals and for a majority of the West, political ideals that they hold do not line up with that of Israel's.

Jack said...

then you have to confront the very real possibility that YOUR views are biased and absurd.

Perhaps, but the funny thing here is that your side is the one resorting to violence. It is your side that claims to be making humanitarian efforts while threatening to hurt those who oppose you. Funny thing that.

We live in a free country where people can openly express their views, not a place like Israel where Palestinians are held in concentration camps and murdered every day.

See, that is just propaganda that is unsupported by fact. It sounds good and it probably makes you feel good to rant hysterically but it doesn't mean that it is true.

If everyone is against you, then it is YOU who is wrong!!!

Flawed logic. For years most people thought that the world was flat, that slavery was moral and that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Yet everyone of those assertions was proven false.

Based upon your logic no one should have ever disputed those perspectives because the majority was right. Fact is the majority isn't always right.

Jack said...

Second anonymous,

I didn't say that every university was bad and even those that have the most issues have their bright spots.

You'll notice that I said that all countries should be criticized, but it must be fair and balanced. Fair and balanced dictates that we do not use false comparisons or hyperbole such as claims that Palestinians live in concentration camps, they do not.

Fair and balanced requires that we don't use terms unless we understand their meaning and that we don't fall prey to moral equivalence and that is a major issue plaguing the debate.

When you don't condemn the terrorists who use children as human shields, who intentionally operate in densely populated civilian areas and who blow up supermarkets there is a serious problem.

Anonymous said...

Well I don't know what to say. I mean on one side I support Palistine and its fight to regain their land. But you're absolutely right change should not be triggered by war I KNOW (what if the Israelis simply left, it would solve this whole world crisis let's face it, the jewish people are at fault fighting over a piece of land the size of california just to have a "jewish state", locking people in "Camps" , refusing any negotiation which might give the palistinians a shred of dignity.) and listen this is going to sound extreme but didn't hitler predict that if the jewish people were allowed to form dominons they would take over nations? now look what we have now? a genocidal nation holding the world hostage with nuclear weapons.

Ludwig V. B. said...

Sorry, excuses are no longer accepted for Israels behavior. There is an excuse for everything Israel does that would not be accepted if another country did what Israel has done.

All human rights organizations, including the United Nations are biased and wrong? Millions of people all over the world are wrong? You got to be kidding. Israel has broken more International laws and broken more humanitarian laws than any country in the world. How do you account for that? Your analogies are baseless, only to steer the reader in different directions.

It's time Zionist Jews all over the world wakes up, and demands Israel changes her behavior. And in my personal opinion, Israels leaders should be held accountable for the horrendous and horrible crimes they committed in Gaza, as well as in Lebanon.

And lastly, I commend the students for using their freedom of speech and expression to make a difference in this world, as well as the students on the east coast that have had their University divest from companies who fund the Israeli occupation. My hat off to Hampshire College for getting the ball rolling. Here is their story and the progress thats being made:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/02/what-can-you-do-to-support-courageous-hampshire-college-.html

Jack said...

Well I don't know what to say. I mean on one side I support Palistine and its fight to regain their land.

Regain what land. There never was a Palestine ruled by Palestinians. You know Egypt occupied Gaza from '48-'67 but you don't ever hear stories about how they offered it to the Pals.

Jordan had the West Bank and East Jerusalem during that same time frame and again you don't hear stories about how they offered it to the Pals.

You don't hear those stories because they never happened.Ever wonder why that is. Or ever wonder about how Jordan was carved up out of the remains of the Ottoman empire and why no one complains about that.

You know I could pick apart the rest of your statement. I could continue to point out flawed logic. I could point out that your sole attempt to use fact is to rely upon a mass murderer, but why. You seem to be doing a better job of hoisting yourself onto your own petard than I could.

Ludwig you say,

Sorry, excuses are no longer accepted for Israels behavior.

Right, because no nation is allowed to defend itself. If someone chooses to attack it must be because they are wrong.

There is an excuse for everything Israel does that would not be accepted if another country did what Israel has done.

How about providing some examples. Would you care comment about what Russia has done in Chechnya or what has been happening in Darfur.
Millions of people all over the world are wrong?

The majority is not always right. Try supporting that with some fact.

Israel has broken more International laws and broken more humanitarian laws than any country in the world.

Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is and prove it. Give some details otherwise it is just rhetoric, unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your analogies are baseless, only to steer the reader in different directions.

No, they are based in fact and reality. And the reality is that you haven't provided any facts.

And in my personal opinion, Israels leaders should be held accountable for the horrendous and horrible crimes they committed in Gaza,

And what crimes would those be. Oh, I am sorry. I asked you to provide facts. I asked for details and you have none.

I don't have any problem with students expressing their opinion. Where that changes is when they try to silence the opposition by using intimidation. If there side is couched in righteousness there shouldn't be any need to threaten people, but they do.

Very telling this need to support those who use terror. Not impressive, but very telling.

Anonymous said...

From what I read, Jack is not excusing bad behavior on Israel's part. Rather threats and intimidation techniques on college campuses. Of all the places in the world, a college campus should be a safe haven for exchange of ideas without intimidation. Seems some of you believe in free speech...as long as the other side is suppressed.

I don't see how any "negotiating" can take place while rockets are being shot into civilian neighborhoods or suicide bombers are targeting cafes and buses. It appears to many that these are deliberate acts of provocation, designed to provoke a violent reaction.

Anonymous said...

The article you wrote is completely one sided.
You didnt try to find any reason to explain why students of all people have started to protest.
I'd say, There must be something really worth protesting, thats why.
No other reason for teen agers with no care in the world to start protesting.
This just shows the tip of the scope of the horrendous crims israel is committing on people who have been locked up in nothing less than concentratoin camps.

Jack said...

Of all the places in the world, a college campus should be a safe haven for exchange of ideas without intimidation.

Thank you.

You didnt try to find any reason to explain why students of all people have started to protest.
I'd say, There must be something really worth protesting, thats why.
No other reason for teen agers with no care in the world to start protesting.


Clearly you have never been to a college campus because if you had you'd know better than to say something so ignorant.

Go to a campus and you'll see all sorts of different protests that have nothing to do with this topic. C'mon, if you are going to comment try to add something.

Anonymous said...

wow we all know anonymous is a dumuslim. You talk about how free speech on the other side is censored and banned, while israel gets free speech. What about what happened in germany. a mob of muslims were marching through a street in berlin protesting israels actions. they saw an apartment with an israeli flag and started throwing rocks at it. some young terrorists in the crowd were going to kick in the door where a young couple lived. the police appeased the mob by kicking in the door and forcing the couple to take the flag down. you say the palestinians aren't free, wheres the freedom that couple had? forcing to take down their country's flag to appease a bloodthirsty mob. The palestinians were free to select their terrorist government in hamas, hamas was free to launch rockets to break the ceasefire, and the people were free to stop their terrorist government hamas from launching those rockets. Even the moderate muslim world is free to stop the extremist minority, yet they don't, because deep down they are comfortable with what the terrorists are doing. Pakistan is free to kill bin laden any time they want to because they know where he is, but deep down muslims agree with him, so they shield him with pakistan's nuclear umbrella knowing america can never get to him. jack is right. you are just playing the victim who's victimizing israel. I tell you what, no muslims will ever have one of those rallies in the states because we have the right to defend ourselves, so if they tried to assault some jews, I hope those jews take out everyone. Just like mahmoud amangybad from Iran, he is going to eat his words "wipe israel off the map" If they attack israel, israel will wipe them off the map, I hope you read the story of samson and delilah, after the Philistines captured samson, he pushed two pillars in the temple they were holding him at and killed everyone with him, if israel is in danger, they will use the "samson option" and wipe iran off the map. The jews have nukes and one of the world's most powerful militaries, they will no longer be led as lambs to the slaughter. I won't read the one sided irrational response you will probably make while you plan your pilgramige to mecca where you walk around a rock that is worthless. Allah and the christian god aren't the same. Allah is the pre-islamic pagan moon god of mecca. there is no 72 virgins in heaven, we have no use for sex in the afterlife. But terrorists who die believing this will only get 72 demons gang raping them in hell. have a nice day. dumuslim

Anonymous said...

Israel broke the cease fire by marching troops into Gaza and killing six people while the world was busy watching Obama get elected. This much is known now. Hamas THEN retaliated and began firing rockets into Israel. Do a bit of research instead of just buying what the NY Times is trying to sell. Israel is an aggressor and ghetto-izer.

John said...

I accept that there may be some radicalization among anti-Israel protesters. But you've got to be absurdly biased to not think that Israel is mistreating the Palestinians. The situation stinks of apartheid, and I'm afraid more and more people are realizing this.

I'm a university student in Canada, and I've seen student protests against Israeli policies. I have never seen these protesters say or do violent things. Ever. On the other hand, I do see pro-Israel protesters set up shop nearby, and they invariably hold placards with the over-riding message that if you don't support Israel, you hate Jews.

Give me a break. I am really tired of every act of protest against Israel being called anti-Semitic. It is entirely possible to hate Israeli government policy (read: Zionism) and like Jews. Heck, there are Jews who hate Zionism, and I'm friends with some of them. Are they anti-Semitic too? Some day you'll have to stop the sob stories about how the world is out to get you, and realize that you have been bitterly cruel in your treatment of a weaker people.

Jack said...

Hamas THEN retaliated and began firing rockets into Israel.

Anonymous we need to get beyond the nonsense of who broke the truce because I can provide mountainloads of material that prove you're wrong.

The critical element that you ignore here is that for years the terrorists indiscriminiately fired rockets into Israel. No civilized nation will allow their citizens to be attacked without responding. They fired upon land that was not under dispute by anyone other than those who do not accept Israel.

Furthermore your refusal to acknowledge or condemn their use of human shields, their intentional operation among civilians and all of the other violations of the Geneva Convention and human rights demonstrates a flawed moral compass. It really is very telling.



John let's address some of what you said

I accept that there may be some radicalization among anti-Israel protesters

John, there are a ton of YouTube videos in which they chant that Jews should go to the gas chambers and that Hitler should have finished the job. There is footage of violence at the demonstrations that is always coming from the antiIsrael side. That is a problem that deserves more attention than saying that there might be some radicals.

But you've got to be absurdly biased to not think that Israel is mistreating the Palestinians.

And you have to be absurdly biased to only look at one side. No one is saying that Israel is without flaw. Are you aware that Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals and that there are Israeli human rights groups that police Israeli actions.

You don't see that coming from the other side. They have received billions of dollars in Aid. What happened to it.

Are you aware of the civil war that took place in Gaza and that Hamas used mob tactics to oust Fatah. They threw men off of the top of buildings and engaged in all sorts of murderous larceny.

Give me a break. I am really tired of every act of protest against Israel being called anti-Semitic. It is entirely possible to hate Israeli government policy (read: Zionism) and like Jews.

It is possible but the problem is that most of these demonstrations still cross the line. So while you sit in your little dorm and wave your finger there are people at the demonstrations who send a different message.

As I have told the others here if you want to be taken more seriously you need to bring in more facts about the situation and less rhetoric.

Because you are yet another person who gives the terrorists a pass. It is never acceptable to behave as they have done and the lack of condemnation on your part concerns me. What sort of education are you receviing that you cannot admit that the terrorists are wrong.

I never said that Israel was without fault, but it is not entirely to blame either.

Why can't you do the same.No facts in your argument and no condemnation of murderous thugs. How very sad.

Robert said...

Just a couple of comments to several people- first off, how about rockets launched from civilian population centers almost daily for 8 years. How about stealing food for aid to the civilians. How about forcing medical personnel to turn away civilians. How about your children learning to want a race dead because thier professors support that view. I've heard professors talking very calmly about the "Jewish Problem" and how students should be mad at them, and even seen a group of Bi/Lesbian/gay supporters of Hamas. It seems strange that a group that would end up executed because of thier beliefs and lifestyle would support this organisation. Jack is right to be concerned. Next time you want to call someone a Nazi- shouldn't be the ones who advocate the Final Solution?

Anonymous said...

To all you People who live in the world of CNN and one sided news and not in the world of FACT.
Israel Is the ONE AND ONLY country in the world that went to peace talks giving up LANDS that belong to them BY INTERNATIONAL law. The governments who went to these peace talks gave guns to terrorists under the agreement signed as a third party member (USA) to make sure Israel is un harmed. If you learn your history all you palestine lovers who claim isreal took over lands. let me teach you true fact and history.
1919 the league of nations decided to give the british a Mandet to build a jewish state in the middle east. the land that was chosen was from the center of Todays Jordan all the way to the west bank and tel aviv beach. north to south.
from that day on JEWS in Israel (a place that always had jews). were attacked slautered and war between religions started. After WWII and the creation of the UN the charter constituted says: the UN will obay the deciosns of the League of nations. in 1947 the voted on giving Jews a state in israel. The moment the vote ended arab (those days there were no Palastinians) from all over the middle east as far as Iraq started attacking Jews everywhere. Israel hasn't been established and it was under attack. in 1967 after the six day war or the june war depends what side you are looking at it from, Israel offered Jordans king Hussain the west bank back all besides Jerusalem. no strings attached take what you left behind. Jordans response was No you keep it. In 1973 The PLO led By Yasser Araft attempted to take over Jordan. they lost and were exiled. in 1981 after 2 attempts in the past 33 years Isreal had a peace agreement with Jordan, backed by The US. The US president backed a agreement kicking JEWS out of their homes (unconstitutional since some were americans and in that case the US goernment can NOT take their homes without due prossess of law).
during the negotiations for peace between Sa'adat and Begin The gaza strip was offered to Egypt, Egypt said NO!!!
from day one of the OSLO death Agreements between Israel and the PLO Jews have been attacked with wepons Israel supplied them for PEACE keeping. When the economy in Israel sucks and money for Israeli causes is nowhere to be found. Giving homes to the JEWS that were kicked out of their homes in GAZA so Palistinians aren't under Israel occupation. Money is flowing into the PA who buys wepons for attacking Israel.
All you people out there who say Israel is commiting war crimes. FUCK YOU!!! 2 countries were destroied because 19 people hijacked planes and crashed them into 3 buildings. the 4th was brought down by people fighting for their own lives. Well Israel only protects it's own land and it's own people. They are doing the same thing as the HEROIC actions we all were so proud of on flight 93!!! Israel fights for it's right to LIVE.
For all you people who say the world would be better off without Israel, Think what would happen if Israel didn't, IRAQ would have had NUKES, Remember Israel Bombed the plant. NO ISRAEL all the Jews would live in your countries, DO YOU WANT THAT???? KEEP them in their own land let them live in PEACE. and think what JFK did in CUBA without a single shot fired, Think back to the reaction that was to come. Israel doesn't use half the force the are premitted to use by INTERNATIONAL LAW. Besides the UN said IT IS OK TO FIGHT AGAINST TERROR. THAT IS ALL ISRAEL IS DOING.

The Rebbetzin's Husband said...

Let's talk realistically, folks.

Concentration camps? Who are you kidding? They are in refugee camps, serviced by the Red Cross and controlled by the UN - and they are in those camps because their own people keep them there. In the West Bank, in Gaza, in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Egypt - those are the people keeping them in refugee camps. Israel has given them more land than they can use, but they remain in camps anyway.

And as far as majority opinion - Majority opinion elected George W. Bush, invaded Iraq and ran the global economy into the ground, too. Majority opinion likes easy solutions for its problems, even when those easy solutions don't make sense.
Ditto for the belief that rendering the Middle East judenrein will take care of the world's problems. Don't be silly.

Mel said...

Anonymous: if everyone is against you, then it is YOU who is wrong!!!

Jack: Flawed logic. For years most people thought that the world was flat, that slavery was moral and that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Yet everyone of those assertions was proven false.

Based upon your logic no one should have ever disputed those perspectives because the majority was right. Fact is the majority isn't always right.


Jack, you are missing an even more important point - you seem to accept the premise that Jew bashing is the majority to begin with in the Anonymous posters comments (leave alone whether the majority is always right). The precursor to that belief is the belief that who ever makes the most noise and is the outspoken is the majority.
Just because groups like you described hold power and influence in some circles and can hold vituperative and hateful meetings does not make them the majority.
One characteristic of actual majorities (as opposed to self-ordained ones) is that they tend to not need to resort to violence, hate, propaganda etc. as long as they function in a democratic milieu. They simply observe their views becoming accepted by sheer virtue of their majority.
People who want to be majorities but inconveniently don't have the actual numbers to do so tend to resort to violence, propaganda, etc. I know I can't produce proof but I think that clearly is the case with the jew bashing mindset that seems to dominate in some places. These people assume that because the proponents of hate make more noise they must be the majority. Even my own college campus experience tells me otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Good morning Jack.

I agree with you that at times these protests on the campuses get out of hand and that most of these are very one-sided presentations.

But in some comments in which you responded, you seem to think that Israel is totally innocent, or that the British gave them a piece of empty land to occupy (and really, it was in truth never the UK's land to give away).

The truth is that niether side can claim any moral high ground here.

It is criminal the way those people in the West bank refugee camps are forced to live. Just as it is criminal for suicide bombers to do what they do and for them to fire random rockets into Israel. Yet Israelis continue to expand settlements in the West bank despite previous agreements not to do so.

In another bone-headed play, the Gazans elect a radical terrorist group into power, at a time when there was finally hope through Abbas and a more moderate Fatah for a path forward to a 2 state solution.

I've been to Israel. and I agree with the previous poster that what exists there today looks, feels, and quacks very much like Apartheid.

From the religious perspective, and on a larger scale, we have muslims with medieval mindsets and some strange desire to recapture the old glory of a arabic-muslim empire long gone, and a religion that disrespects non-muslims.
On the other side we have one religious text about the origin of a people which is just as fictional and mythical as the pre-existing Palestinian state (found any remains of David and Solomon's
grand empire yet? you know you will not, correct ?). Add to that a Talmud containing propogandal, not-so-wise wisdom such as that Jews need not repay debts to non-Jews nor respect them.

(sarcasm)Now there's a formula for good faith negotiations.
(end sarcasm).

alienatedlabour said...

Could we please retire the term "Anti-semitism," or at least agree not to use it unless you understand what it means? Arabs are a Semitic people, just as the Jews are, so unless you're referring to a prejudice against both groups (and all the others that come under the Semitic umbrella), the term has no meaning. The term certainly has no meaning in a conflict between two Semitic peoples, such as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

And yes, it's unfortunate that some protesters become uncivil, I was left scratching my head and wondering if the blogger even understands what a protest is. A protest is an expression of grievance and dissent (and usually also therefore an expression of anger). A protest is not a debate, a discussion, or a forum for intellectual exploration of the issues. The notion that a protest should somehow be fair and balanced is foolish, as it is not in accord with the function that protest serves. Were the members of the 13 colonies protesting British rule obligated to fairly represent the British position? Should African-American civil rights protesters in the 60's have been obligated to fairly represent the pro-segregation point of view? Should a Vietnam protest also have contained a pro-war panel, for fairness' sake?

There SHOULD be a place where these issues are explored in a fair and civil dialogue, with objectivity and a commitment to the truth. The notion that the place to try to create this dialogue is a PROTEST, however, is absurd.

The blogger is right to imply that there is hypocrisy afoot. But this hypocrisy is coming from both sides; both the people who gloss over the actions of Hamas in order to attack Israel, and the people who gloss over the actions of Israel in order to attack Hamas. I detest Hamas for its willingness to kill civilians. And I detest the IDF for the same reason. When asking the question "Is it wrong to kill civilians?" the truly hypocritical response is "It depends on whose civilians."

James said...

I agree with you Jack about some of those pro-Palestinain rallies held on college campuses.

Such rallies do not promote fairness nor any fair hearing of the other side. Their purpose is to demonstrates the students disapproval of Israel's treatment of some of the Palestinians. and Yes ,they get out of hand and sometimes violent. I think it best that you avoid them.

But let me ask you if you can you cite for me any example from history where the occupied (real or perceived) did not resist the occupiers, even if those occupiers perhaps greatly improved the quality of life for the occupied ?

Has not this resistance at times been so futile, so un-necessary and the resistance so stubborn that the occupied rebelled to the point of nearly total destruction of their culture ?

I know of one example from history where the occupiers greatly improved the quality of life of the occupied. They allowed them (at first) self-government, allowed them freedom of religion, educated their people, treated them in their hospitals, built for them roads, aqueducts, sewage systems, arrested gangs of bandits, and created trade whcih allowed them to propser as they never had before. (none of which they had or likely would have developed on their own for many more centuries).

Despite all of this,the occupied rebelled yet the fact of the matter was that they had no chance(and I mean 0 CHANCE at all) of success. Needless to say, the rebels had nearly every one of their cities razed to the ground and most of the population either killed or taken into slavery, save for those who (wisely) fled.
Yet afterward afterward the occupiers actually let the native people who fled return and resume life in their native land.
What happenned next is so incredulous and shcocking that it is difficult to believe. Still, those who returned rebelled yet again despite once again, 0 chance of success. Needless to say, the rebels lost again, as before the the occupiers slaughtered and enslaved them. But this time the occupiers barred them from ever returning.

That is fanaticism no ?

Could you or I understand why anyone would rebel or resist when there is absolutely no chance of success ?



Of course I refer to the Jewish people of Judea and their revolt against the Roman empire of 70CE and the Bar Kobba(sp?) revolt some 50 years later.
The Romans renamed this land "Palestinia".

Do the Jewish people of Israel expect anything less from those they occupy ?

Jack said...

Next time you want to call someone a Nazi- shouldn't be the ones who advocate the Final Solution?

That would be a nice change of pace, but the opposition is not going to do so. They'd rather use emotion than fact to do their fighting.

TRH,

You are correct about the refugee camps and why they exist. Sadly the Palestinians continue to be exploited for political gain by their Arab brethren. It is ever so painful to be chastised by these beacons of human rights, two bit dictators who stay in power by force and deception.

Well said Mel.

But in some comments in which you responded, you seem to think that Israel is totally innocent

Anonymous I have never said that Israel is without blame or that they haven't done anything wrong here.

All I have maintained is that accusations be based upon fact and equal standards.

or that the British gave them a piece of empty land to occupy (and really, it was in truth never the UK's land to give away).

And why don't we discuss the other countries that were created in this fashion. That is part of the problem with this flawed narrative. It singles out one group and ignores the others.

I've been to Israel. and I agree with the previous poster that what exists there today looks, feels, and quacks very much like Apartheid.

That is another misuse of the term and an attempt to obfuscate the truth. It is patently false and simply wrong.

On the other side we have one religious text about the origin of a people which is just as fictional and mythical as the pre-existing Palestinian state (found any remains of David and Solomon's
grand empire yet?


Again you are incorrect, evidence has been found and documented.

Add to that a Talmud containing propogandal, not-so-wise wisdom such as that Jews need not repay debts to non-Jews nor respect them.


That is a red herring that has no basis for being a part of this discussion. Here is one example of how it doesn't work. There are Israeli Arab members of the Knesset. They don't work for free, they are paid.

Alienated Labour,

You're just wrong. If someone discusses antisemitism it is understood who they are talking about. The suggestion you make is ridiculous.

And yes, it's unfortunate that some protesters become uncivil, I was left scratching my head and wondering if the blogger even understands what a protest is.

That is just moronic. There is no excuse for violence at the protests. THere is not need for civil unrest, unless your goal is to try and quash the opposition by using fear to silence them.

The notion that a protest should somehow be fair and balanced is foolish

It is only foolish when you don't have enough fact and moral ground to support your position. It is common for demonstrations to be met with counter demonstrations. But apparently you think it is alright for violence to take place at such events because people are angry and angry people should be allowed to anything, right.

I detest Hamas for its willingness to kill civilians. And I detest the IDF for the same reason.

There is a difference here. Hamas goes out of its way to create civilian casualties. One of the reasons that they wear civilian clothing is to try and artificially inflate the total number of civilians who are killed.

The IDF goes out of its way to avoid killing civilians.

But the whole premise that somehow war can be fought without civilian casualties is foolish and ridiculous. I am sorry for the truly innocent. I feel badly that their terrorist leaders intentionally operate among them. I feel badly that they are exploited in this fashion, but no country should be prevented from protecting its citizens.

But let me ask you if you can you cite for me any example from history where the occupied (real or perceived) did not resist the occupiers, even if those occupiers perhaps greatly improved the quality of life for the occupied ?

James let's cut to the chase. Can you provide a time when there was a state called Palestine that was governed by people called Palestinians. The fact is that you cannot, at least not if you want to call the Palestinians Arabs.

Because as you pointed out the first Palestinians were Jews and yes they did receive that title from the Romans as punishment.

But those Jews had been running their own kingdom on the land as opposed to the mythological Palestine run by Palestinian arabs.

There has been a continual Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years.

Let's throw something else into the mix. What would happen if the Palestinians engaged in nothing but non violent resistance. What do you think would happen.

Unlikely and almost unbelievable scenario don't you think.

Why aren't there any Palestinian civil rights groups monitoring what happens in Gaza?

The answer is that to do so is to invite death.

That is not the case in Israel. Again Israel is not without blame, but I haven't any problem stating that they have a far more moral approach to this.

Anonymous said...

It has always been that way on college campuses that both sides were never presented fairly. There is a spiritual planetary war playing out here between the forces that wish to control this planet, intolerence and violent and the forces for good. Unfortunately the negative forces have found their voices on the college campuses which do not represent the feelings of most of the students. In the 1970's Noam Chomsky and his Ilk espoused it and I always found it interesting that you would never find the kind of bashing and demonstrations on the university campuses of any of those countries and groups silently agitating the bashing on democratic campuses. In Iran, Syria and other countries, students would be arrested or killed but here in the US,canada and other democratic societies they found a forum to spread anti-semetic anti-israeli rhetoric fully protected by the same democratic institutions that they seek to destroy.Israel needs to put public relations efforts onto the university campuses that the forces behind the pro palestinian detractors do. Israel was placed on this planet to protect humanity. While countries selfishly pursued their own material goals during the past 60 years only Israel with the US consistently deterred and delayed the acquisition of nuclear weapons by the true enemies of humanity, terrorist groups and their sponsoring nations such as Iran and Syria. It is ironic that these same freedoms that terrorist groups backed by these nations want to destroy ie: gay rights, women aspirations and freedoms, religious tolerence and cultural diversity, freedom of press and speech in a democratic way are the same freedoms that these campus voices use to spout their venom. It is said that the extremists are a small number compared to the large number of moderates yet their voice is loud. It is the same for the voices on the campuses, a small number of souls, some of whom with good intentions are being used,misinformed, by those who are using the very same freedoms that they wish to extinguish. The same evil ideology, that suppresses freedom, tolerence, love and compassion and encourages hate and violence, that drove the Nazis and landed in the brotherhood, the Hamas, the hizbollah and their nuclear bomb seeking sponsors, Syria and Iran, driving moderates into hiding, poses the biggest danger to the liberal voices, the freedoms that the west has worked so hard to achieve. The extremists are using the strength of democracy to destroy it as they seek to instill MISINFORMATION, fear and violence in order to enslave humanity. They are using the campuses to delegitimize Israel because they understand that Israel is the one force that keeps them from destroying humanity.They have been throwing rockets at innocent Israeli citizens for years. They have used the palestinian cause to furthur their own agenda, using the Palestinian people as human shields, keeping them from peace and coexistence and teaching them suicide bombing techniques Taking them away from the Koran and teaching them from a multitude of hadiths not even recognized by Islam. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli's are being manipulated by the biggest violators of human rights, the Hamas, Iran,Syria and the forces behind them. As a psychic healer, I know the veil of ignorance will be lifted so that the forces of good of which Israel has always stood at the forefront will prevail. Humanity will wake Up

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