September 29, 2005

Southern Baptists Offensive & I Mean Offensive

CNN is just one of a number of news outlets that is carrying a story about yet another problem that the Southern Baptists are creating with Jews. The root of the problem lies in the arrogant and misguided belief that they have the sole line to G-d and that they are tasked with spreading the word.

In the latest outbreak they have decided that the best way to attack us is by trying to use Jews who have converted as their tools.
"Anti-Defamation League director Abraham Foxman said the effort is offensive because the Southern Baptists are using Jews who have converted to Christianity "to go after other Jews."

"If people convert, that's their individual business," Foxman said. "But don't use them as a tool to convert other people."

At the heart of the ADL's complaint is a decision by the Southern Baptist Convention executive committee to ask its missionary boards to study the idea of recognizing the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship as "an evangelistic mission to Jewish people."

The fellowship is made up of about a dozen congregations in the United States. Its Web site says its mission is "to encourage Jewish believers that their ethnic and historical heritage need NOT be lost upon their commitment to Yeshua [Jesus]."

The idea to use the fellowship was proposed at the national convention in Nashville in June. The SBC executive committee recommended last week that its International Mission Board and North American Mission Board study the possibility.

Jim Sibley, coordinator of Jewish Ministries for the SBC's North American Mission Board, said the ADL was overreacting. The committee was simply forwarding the proposal, he said.

"Personally, I don't really see this (recommendation) going anywhere," Sibley said Thursday."

Overreacting. I wonder how he would feel if we decided to make an effort to target Southern Baptists, if we used Xtians who had converted to try and convince other Xtians to become Jewish. What would they do if we went and spoke to their children and told them how sad we were that they they were missing out on so much fun. And considering the history well...
"The Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution in 1996 calling on its members to "direct our energies and resources toward the proclamation of the gospel to the Jewish people."

A 1999 prayer guide by the International Mission Board recommended conversion of Jews to Christianity during their High Holy Days, an effort labeled "offensive and disrespectful" by Jewish leaders.

As recently as 2003 Jewish leaders criticized a Southern Baptist seminary president for saying Christians have a mandate to evangelize Jews just as a surgeon has a responsibility to tell a patient about the presence of a "deadly tumor."

I really don't care what you believe as long as you don't try to force it down my throat. These guys have crossed the line and I am not willing to stand for it nor do I have to or anyone else.

31 comments:

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Didn't they like have a plan to convert us all before the year 2000?

Ha.

Jack's Shack said...

Steg,

I do believe that they did. Oops.

Luz the Magpie said...

I've always thought the Southern Baptists' outlook on Jews must be very awkward. On one hand they're totally dependent on Jews/Israel for their eschatology and, on the other, they have to convert anything that moves including Jews. A friend once got involved briefly with the Messianic Jewish movement and it was amazing how many non-Jews from SB type backgrounds I counted (before they asked me not to come back). They're obsessed with Jewishness/Zionism and yet terrified of going to hell if they haven't put their hand up for Jesus. Would be fairly amusing if it was contained and, as you say, they didn't try to inflict it on the rest of us.

Stephen (aka Q) said...

I am not in sympathy with these folks — not at all — and I make no effort to propagate my faith to Jews or anyone else.

But is evangelism equivalent to shoving your faith down someone else's throat? You're a salesman, Jack. When you pitch a product or service, does the other individual not have a choice to buy or not to buy?

Evangelism is offensive because they're not trying to take mere money from you, they're trying to get you to break with your faith/culture. I do not believe in it, particularly given the Church's history of antisemitism.

But I'm not convinced evangelism is illegitimate if it's done respectfully. (Call me devil's advocate … which casts the Southern Baptists in the role of the devil.)
Q

Jack's Shack said...

Luz,


Interesting story.

Q,

It doesn't have to be offensive or disrespectful. The distinction really lies in the manner and way in which it is handled.

The Southern Baptists have a track record which demonstrates a complete lack of respect and regard for Judaism.

I truly am not bothered that the world is not composed solely of Jews. I don't care what you believe in and I don't mind you recruiting for new believers provided that it is conducted in a respectful manner.

But read their comments and their literature.

As recently as 2003 Jewish leaders criticized a Southern Baptist seminary president for saying Christians have a mandate to evangelize Jews just as a surgeon has a responsibility to tell a patient about the presence of a "deadly tumor."

That doesn't warm the cockles of my heart.

I don't bandy words about things that I am passionate about and I have had occasion to explain to them just how foolish they are acting.

Stacey said...

I live in Texas, which is a haven for Southern Baptists. I work with one. He has not approached me about any of this, but another co-worker of mine told me he is praying for my salvation. All I can say is he is wasting his time. It deeply offends me.

dorothy rothschild said...

I grew up abround the Southern Baptist Bible beaters. There were very few Jewish families in my town. I am not Jewish, but was raised by an agnostic and an atheist. We did not go to church, and the neighbors were all suspicious. My sister and I definitely felt the pressure, and would often go to church with friends just so people wouldn't think we were complete freaks.

There was a Jewish girl in my sister's class. The music teacher, the same music teacher who had me hyperventilating one day after doing a hellfire and brimstone spiel about the rapture and saying that anyone who wasn't saved (and I wasn't), would go to hell and burn for eternity, one day singled out the Jewish girl and called her a Christ killer and told her she was going to hell.

Kids, young, stupid kids, would come around and knock on our doors and ask us "if you died tonight, would you go to heaven?" They were from a big Southern Baptist church. The same church that the music teacher belonged to.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to live as a Jew in an environment like that. And let me tell you, they have no idea of Jewish culture and heritage. None. They barely even have an idea of Christianity. Every time I hear an Evangelical spouting from rote some mumbojumbo they've heard over and over in church from the preacher but have no idea what it means or what they are even saying, it brings bile to my mouth.

I hate a hypocrite.

I think that is what galls the most about prostletyzing.

That and the audacity to believe that you possess some sort of truth and are going to enlighten another person.

There's that bile again.

Stacey said...

Wow Dorothy. I cannot believe that went on in a public school. My oldest doesn't start kindergarten for 2 more years, but already I'm gearing up for the battles I will face.

Gunny said...

You now have a response to your comment at my blog.

Jack's Shack said...

Hey D.R.,

Stories like that are all too familiar to me and not what I call heartwarming.

Stacey,

Some people.

Gunny said...

Thanks for stopping by, Jack. I have left the last word at my blog.

Jack's Shack said...

Marcus,

I see that not only have you banned me you have edited my comments. I am pleased to see that because it means that you understand that you are using a straw man argument.

It means that you haven't any real faith in your position and that deep down you understand that what you are doing is wrong and reprehensible.

But since I have a personal relationship with G-d I will pray for you. :)

Vince Millay said...

Marcus, your hatefulness makes the Baby Jesus cry.

He cries and cries, Marcus, when you say nigger, spic, kike, towelhead and bitch. He hears, Marcus, he hears, even when you don't say it out loud but only in your mind. Even when the only time you say it is while you are driving alone in your truck.

The Baby Jesus cries when you touch yourself when you look at the pictures of Abu Ghraib on the internets, Marcus.

He cries when you spread hate in His name.

The Baby Jesus was a Jew, do you remember, Marcus?

The Baby Jesus wishes that you remembered more passages of the Bible where he preaches love and tolerance, Marcus.

Stop making the Baby Jesus cry, won't you, Marcus?

Danny Carlton said...

Luz the Magpie said...
They're obsessed with Jewishness/Zionism and yet terrified of going to hell if they haven't put their hand up for Jesus.


Luz, you obviously know very little about Christians, let alone Southern Baptists

Q said...
Evangelism is offensive because they're not trying to take mere money from you, they're trying to get you to break with your faith/culture.

But the problem the exact opposite. These Messianic Christians don't want to abandon their heritage. It's people like Abraham Foxman and Jack here who demand that a Jew who recognized Jesus as the Messiah must abandon their heritage. The Southern Baptist Convention supports the Messianic Jews in their effort to continue to embrace the heritage. Is disbelief in Jesus the only thing that makes someone a Jew? If so, then by that definition Hitler was a Jew, since he ordered Nazi teacher to teach the school children that Jesus was nothing but a naughty Jewish boy who disobeyed his parents.

Jack's Shack said...
The Southern Baptists have a track record which demonstrates a complete lack of respect and regard for Judaism.

Give an example...and wanting to tell Jews about Jesus is not a valid example; that simply demonstrates your closed mindedness.

Stacey said...
...another co-worker of mine told me he is praying for my salvation...It deeply offends me.

The nerve of some people caring for you that way. He should hate you, right. If, to him, salvation is a good thing, then he is showing concern for you. Is Judaism such a horrible thing that Jews wouldn't wish it on anyone else?

dorothy rothschild said...
I hate a hypocrite.

I think that is what galls the most about prostletyzing.

That and the audacity to believe that you possess some sort of truth and are going to enlighten another person.

You must hate yourself then, since you, by posting here, are claiming that you posses some sort of truth and wish to enlighten other people. Or are we to understand you wish your word to be taken as meaningless babble?

Chas D said...

A revelation, Marcus. Your head is obviously a very interesting place (though for little more use than for what I said I was doing with it to Karla, ha ha), and I wouldn't want to spend longer there than I absolutely had to. It is a place in which everything is known with complete and perfect certainty. The intrusion of anything questioning this certainty (for it's certainly never going to come from underneath that little baseball cap of yours) is ipso facto false. It does not matter how much more authority that source has than you, you are always right so that source's authority must be wrong. The only qualification for absolute wrongness is disagreeing with Marcus. Tries to engage in intelligent argument? Ban her/him. So long as you can have the last word. (It obviously amuses me immensely that you didn't ban me while you thought I agreed with you, however embarrassed you were by my posts! Next to you and your pitiful inability to address any intelligent challenge, "Cowardly Chas" looks like General Macarthur.)

The chronic insecurity underlying this kneejerk annihilation of the slightest challenge to your fixed universe makes me feel almost, slightly, sorry for you. (Don't worry, I got over it pretty quickly.) No wonder you pray a lot. I wouldn't bother. Jesus would have despised an automaton like you, he was a real (Jewish) revolutionary.

Sorry, Jack, a bit off-topic - Marcus is due a bit of a retort and you deserve support. The Southern Baptists are foul for taking this stance. But isn't that the sort of arrogance we expect? And FYI, as a new poster here, I'm a gentile married to a Jew (sorry, love knows no bounds), our children are Jewish and I'm very proud of the fact. Marcus - I'll see you in Hell.

(Incidentally, your ban on profanity: presumably Karla, for saying you are "full of crap" (and you can trust a friend like her to tell you the truth) is now off-list? So it's not profanity then? Just whether or not they agree with what Marcus says? Oh, I see.)

LiquiDiamonds said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
LiquiDiamonds said...

A lenghty one, comming at you Jack...sorry, couldn't hold this one back...

Evangelicals make me embarassed to be a Christian. I won't waste my time on Marucs' site, because, based on the comments I've read here from the posters, it would just be automaton-schpieling-prefab-dogma...like I need that in my life.

Let me say this first: we cannot know the mind of G-d. We may be infused with G-d like qualities, but we cannot fully know G-d's mind, or plan, I don't care what you throw at me for proof...well, acutally, I do care, but not here, please.

With that said, there are no absolutes when it comes to FAITH. FAITH is the Belief; RELIGION is the tradition of that Belief system...Fundamentalist Christians, and these misguided Southern Baptists, have fused he two...pity...no wait - maybe they got personal emails from G-d telling them what's what...unlikely, though...

Here's an interesting take for all of you. My son started his conversion to Judaism at age 17 and 1/2. He has NEVER tried to get me to convert. I understand (from that very excellent website that Jack provided me: www.jewfaq.org) that Jews aren't supposed to recruit. Have I thought about converting, sometimes, but it would take alot of soul searching.

Conversion of one's RELIGION is easy: say these words, do this, etc. Conversion of the FAITH is much tougher.

I wonder if these Southern Baptists arm their ministers with a "Konversion Kit"..what would go in it? the Bible? now there's a good one...try telling the Jews about a book that they wrote -AND YES THAT INCLUDES THE GOSPELS (after that Gospels, the New Testament begins the age of "Christianity"). Don't even try to fight me on this one Marcus, you'll lose...

Jack you have every right to be offended. You did have a recent post where you talk about the divisions amongst Othorox vs other Jews, in the way they segregate their prayer services (wrong terminology, but I think you get me). What is happening in the Southern Baptist Sect is no different than with any larger religion with sectarian interests. Orthodox Jews would not attempt to convert you, though my they may "look unfavorably" on some of your practices, and may even consider you not a "real Jew" - if I may be so braod in my comparison.

Heck look at the difference between Episcoplians and Catholics...one doesn't ahve a need for the Pope, the other does...and then there is the whole rift WITHIN the Episcopalian Relgiion. Who's right? All of us - none of us??? who knows? I just know I'm not making judgments on either, until they try to cram it down my throat (as Jack so eloquently puts it!)

Where I come from, Catholics don't try to convert anyone, since to be Catholic is to be part of a larger whole. (besides, we've got a few problems these days...!) We don't seek to bring anyone into our religion that does not choose to be there - at least that's the way it works where I come from.

Pray then, for understanding between us all.

Stacey said...

Just wanted to tell Liquidiamonds that her post was great!

Jack's Shack said...

Hi Vince,

Nice response.

Danny Carlton you said:

It's people like Abraham Foxman and Jack here who demand that a Jew who recognized Jesus as the Messiah must abandon their heritage. The Southern Baptist Convention supports the Messianic Jews in their effort to continue to embrace the heritage. Is disbelief in Jesus the only thing that makes someone a Jew?

Yep, if you think that jesus was the messiah then you cannot be Jewish. It is not the only thing that makes someone a Jew but it crosses so many red lines that you cannot be called Jewish. Try thinking about things.

Hi Chas and LD,

Nice comments. Thank you.

My buddy Marcus gave me some attention here so I am posting my response here because he likes to edit my words.
Marcus,

That was a piss poor fisking but I'll forgive you because you are not yet ready to debate this. I say not yet ready because you edit and ban those who disagree with you which demonstrates an unwillingness to confront your own insecurities with your faith.

A few points of interest. You claim that your faith is under assault and that it is constantly being attacked but you haven't any problem attacking someone else for having a different belief than your own.

That is the definition of hypocrisy. But I am not surprised because as I see you are at war with other christians as you said:

Don't confuse Roman Catholicism with Biblical Christianity. The RCC puts tradition above scripture and, as a result, propagates many myths about the Christian faith.

I suppose that you think that they are not real Christians just as I am sure some of them shake their heads at your own silly acts.

I don't need to know Hebrew (or Koine Greek, for that matter) to understand the scriptures because God gave them to me in my own language. He promised to preserve His word (Psalm 12:6-7) and He has, causing Jack's attempt to lord over me with his knowledge of Hebrew to fall flat on its face.

That is a cop out and really a funny way of running away from a debate. I am not lording anything over you, I am asking if you really know what is written in the bible. Did you read it in the original tongue or depend upon a translation.

Perhaps you are aware that it has been mistranslated many times, such as the mistranslation of Ha Yam Soof as the Red Sea when it is supposed to be the Reed Sea.

I suppose that it must feel like you are being attacked when I say that you are following a lie, but isn't that what you are saying to me when you threaten me with eternal damnation. I know, I am a mean man for posting this, but what the the hell.

I am going to include it on my blog too so that it remains there in an unedited form.

There is no such thing as a 'Xtian Jew. That is a term that people developed to try and ensnare more Jews. It is supposed to make us feel comfortable but anyone with a basic understanding of Judaism recognizes that there is no such thing, it is like being partially pregnant.

You can call a dog an elephant but that doesn't make it so.

Marcus, Marcus, Marcus you really need to consider things from a different perspective. I don't really expect you to come to my way of thought but think about a few things.

This week I am going to take vacation time for my holidays because they are not national holidays and most businesses will remain open and expect to be able to go about their day with nary an interruption. I am not complaining about that, just stating a fact.

You probably don't have to worry about that. In school I had to ask teachers to allow me to make up work or reschedule exams because of the conflict of when they fell in relation to my holidays.

On the other hand it is likely that you never had to worry about this because you were likely on a national break.

Your definition of being under assault is far different from my own.

TRW said...

Wow. Hm. I just had a similar thing recently, when I posted on my blog about my frustration with the Jews for Jesus (who targeted my city last month), and a paster started commenting and "proving" that he was right. He avoided all my direct questions, although I answered his explicitely.

I made a point of never going to his blog, although he certainly was attacking mine, because my point was not to convert Christians to Judaism, but to show that a person can't be both Christian and Jewish...it was a bit of an issue, but he finally did go away.

Maybe it was a self-esteem thing, but I NEVER deleted his posts, 'cause I always had an answer for him and knew that mine was right. I think that is a big part of this whole Marcus thing. If you feel that the commentator threatens your position, as Marcus clearly does, then there has to be some kind of problem with your "unshakable" faith...

Kudos, Jack.

Jack's Shack said...

TRW,

It is always interesting to me to see who is willing to confront the questions head on and who attacks them sideways.

I think that a lot of the missionaries are unaccustomed to dealing with Jews who have a solid background.

TRW said...

Well, it's a whole lot easier not to, isn't it? If you quote a whole bunch of Bible at a Jew who never looked at it, it's gonna be a one-sided conversation....it's like a PhD discussing his field with a 10th grader! He can say what he wants, and the kid would never know...

Quite scary, and certainly deceptive...hence makes me very mad...

Stephen Newell said...

Hey Jack, thanks for popping in at my blog! Good to meet ya!

I posted a response to your comment on my own blog, and out of curiosity, I wandered in here and found your original blog article. Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rather narrow view you and your readers are taking at this. So, I'd like to share what I posted in response to you.

"First of all, if some other religion wanted to target Christians, that would be perfectly fine with me. That's their right. In fact, Muslims and Mormons have been actively evangelizing Christians (Muslims for centuries, Mormons for the past 150 or so years) using the exact tactics you describe. Christianity is still around. Hmm.

Second of all, nowhere did I say that Jews in general are troublemakers. Read it again. I said that "political" Jews are the ones making trouble, not the rank and file Jew. These individuals do a grave disservice to the faith, as they make Jews look stupid and silly. And that's not exclusive to Jews--there's plenty of those people in every religion.

Something tells me you don't like to read carefully and thoughtfully; instead you like to jump to conclusions to fit your limited worldview, putting words in people's mouths. Shame."

I'd especially like to point out that nowhere have Southern Baptists said they are "using" this group to convert Jews. They are asking that the convention recognize this group as a mission group. It's interesting that most commentators gloss over this fact and jump to the erroneous conclusion that the big bad Southern Baptists are out to drag Jews kicking and screaming into the faith, much like historical Islam.

I'm also struck by the lack of understanding of Christianity and Christians, Southern Baptists in particular here, in your post and subsequent comments. On the one hand, we're accused of having no respect for Judaism and Jews, yet on the other you and your posters have taken pains to disrespect us as well. Odd.

You've also commented that you want to see people tackle issues head on (near the end of this commentary page), yet you refuse to do exactly that with Danny Carlton. Is it possible you really don't have a response for him? Or is it not worth responding to? You've only "attacked it sideways," to use your words.

Simply put, any religion whose faith commands evangelism (and doesn't Judaism expect evangelism to occur as well? Aren't you guys supposed to be a "light to the nations?") is shortchanged when its adherents don't evangelize. It's kinda silly for those of us who don't belong to a certain religion to criticize it for following its teachings.

Jack's Shack said...

Hi DJ,

This the follow up I left on your blog.

Read it again. I said that "political" Jews are the ones making trouble, not the rank and file Jew.

That is not real useful. It is similar to saying that you can use racial terms because you have "black friends."

Beyond that it is not real descriptive. What is the difference between "Political" and "rank and file" Jews. You don't provide any distinctions and without those your statement is questionable.

That's their right. In fact, Muslims and Mormons have been actively evangelizing Christians (Muslims for centuries, Mormons for the past 150 or so years) using the exact tactics you describe. Christianity is still around.

There are still a number of large distinctions. Look at the populations of each group. How many Xtians are there compared to Muslims and Mormons. How many are there compared to Jews. From a number standpoint you guys are exponentially larger than Jews and that has a real impact.

There are not huge and heavily funded organizations whose purpose is to try and convert you.

I am not someone who waves the Holocaust around,but frankly it is relevant to this. There is something like 15 or 16 million Jews in the world.

A little more than 50 years ago Six million were murdered. That is almost half of the current Jewish population in the world.

There is almost 2000 years of history of persecution. Multiple crusades, the Inquisition, pogroms and more. They all focused upon on us and not you. For that matter most of those events were orchestrated by Xtians.

You may think that this is crazy, but I wonder what the bible thumpers really think about people who do not agree with them, people they say are going to hell.

It makes me question their friendship because it feels like there is an agenda.

The Baptists method of proselytization is at best questionable and considering the vast numbers of Christians who do not agree with the manner in which they act I feel quite comfortable that they have a problem.

Shame on people whose provincial view of the world does not allow them to understand that their tactics are divisive and shameful.

And now onto your comment here.

I'd especially like to point out that nowhere have Southern Baptists said they are "using" this group to convert Jews. They are asking that the convention recognize this group as a mission group. It's interesting that most commentators gloss over this fact and jump to the erroneous conclusion that the big bad Southern Baptists are out to drag Jews kicking and screaming into the faith, much like historical Islam.

You are playing a game of semantics. They are trying to use these people for missionary purposes and trying to suggest otherwise is just smoke and fluff.

I don't follow the Danny Carlton reference, if you try and give me specifics I'll address them.

It's kinda silly for those of us who don't belong to a certain religion to criticize it for following its teachings.

So if I told you that I worshipped Satan and believe in child sacrifice you would not criticize me for following its teachings.

Doesn't make much sense to me.

Stephen Newell said...

That is not real useful. It is similar to saying that you can use racial terms because you have "black friends."
No it isn't, and you know it. I have a hard time believing you don't understand those terms. By the way, I happen to be half black, and such a comment is borderline offensive to me, and so are "racial terms" used to denigrate. Nowhere have I done this, and I resent the implication.

There are not huge and heavily funded organizations whose purpose is to try and convert you.

Nor are there huge and heavily funded organizations whose purpose is to try and convert you, despite what you may believe. I think that most people misunderstand how the Southern Baptist Convention works--they have no authority over the local churches; instead the convention is a cooperation between Southern Baptist chruches to facilitate ministry between them. The SBC is all about making the work of the local church easier, folks. If some of the churches desire to do Jewish missions, that's their choice, and if a majority of the convention's churches agree to support it, that's their choice too. There's no mysterious Southern Baptist cabal out to Bible thump Jews.

I wonder what the bible thumpers really think about people who do not agree with them, people they say are going to hell.
For my own part--and that of many others I know or have heard/read/etc.--there is a profound sadness and desire to see God lead them to Jesus. We believe God doesn't want people to go to hell, but that he wants all to come to faith in Christ. That is what motivates Christian witness, not hatred and bigotry--a love for people that desires the best and not the worst.

The Baptists method of proselytization is at best questionable and considering the vast numbers of Christians who do not agree with the manner in which they act I feel quite comfortable that they have a problem.
Who are these "vast numbers of Christians?" Why haven't we heard from them? And why isn't there an internal debate going on in the SBC in response to these vast numbers, who must certainly outman our measly 16 million Americans? No, really, I want to know. That's the first I've heard of anyone other than Jews or non-religious people having a problem with Christian evangelism of Jewish people.

You are playing a game of semantics. They are trying to use these people for missionary purposes and trying to suggest otherwise is just smoke and fluff.
No I'm not. This group was already doing missions to Jews. All the SBC wants to do is recognize them as a Southern Baptist missions group. The real semantic game is the one played by Abraham Foxman. He took a proposal and twisted it to make it look anti-Semitic.

I don't follow the Danny Carlton reference, if you try and give me specifics I'll address them.
A previous post on this page under that name, incidentally, which you only responded to say that you cannot believe in Jesus as Messiah and still be Jewish. You failed to respond to anything else in his comment. You also overlook that the first Christians were practicing Jews, and remained practicing Jews at least until their death. If Messiah were to come today, would that mean you would cease to be a Jew? That doesn't make sense at all.

Shame on people whose provincial view of the world does not allow them to understand that their tactics are divisive and shameful.
Agreed. Now let's ask ourselves who really was dividing here. It wasn't Southern Baptists. Indeed, no one would have given a flying fiddle dee dee if the ADL hadn't said something. It wouldn't even have gotten a back page blurb. I say shame on the ADL and those on both sides of the issue who are using this tempest in a teapot to stir up trouble.

I also wonder if we're both looking at this from different perspectives. I feel as if you are looking at this from a cultural perspective, whereas I am looking at it religiously. If true, this is not the way to go about it. Where can we reach common ground that would actually get somewhere?

Stacey said...

You are completely misguided. Jewish communities all over this country have their pulse on concerted proselytization efforts such as this. The ADL had nothing to do with it. We would have been outraged had they said nothing.

And you are kidding yourself if you really believe that churches don't fund such efforts. The SBC backs it in a major way. They throw millions of dollars at this. A coworker of mine is a Southern Baptist and his brother is a SB preacher and he READILY admits this. Further, Assemblies of God is another church that heavily funds such efforts.

There is no common ground that can ever be reached here. As long as you continue to disrespect us and target us with proselytization efforts, we will frown up this and resent these completely offensive campaigns.

Jack's Shack said...

Hi DJ,

Let me respond to a few things.

No it isn't, and you know it. I have a hard time believing you don't understand those terms. By the way, I happen to be half black, and such a comment is borderline offensive to me, and so are "racial terms" used to denigrate. Nowhere have I done this, and I resent the implication.

You are really out there with this one. You think that it is ok to use a term like political Jews and then get upset when I point out that it is a ridiculous term and could be considered racist. A little hypocritical there.
Nor are there huge and heavily funded organizations whose purpose is to try and convert you, despite what you may believe.

Again this is patently false, Stacey mentioned a few of them below. Perhaps you are unaware that they exist, but they are out there which is one of the reasons that there is a need for a group like Jews for Judaism Try reading this
That's the first I've heard of anyone other than Jews or non-religious people having a problem with Christian evangelism of Jewish people.

Some of those people have posted here and there are many more that I have encountered. Come to think of it I have heard from quite a few Catholics that are upset about this too.
You failed to respond to anything else in his comment. You also overlook that the first Christians were practicing Jews, and remained practicing Jews at least until their death. If Messiah were to come today, would that mean you would cease to be a Jew? That doesn't make sense at all.

Some things are not worth responding to becaus they lack relevance and are immaterial to the discussion.

The reality is that if a person believes that jesus was the messiah/G-d they are not observing Jewish theology and are not practicing Judaism.

Indeed, no one would have given a flying fiddle dee dee if the ADL hadn't said something. It wouldn't even have gotten a back page blurb.
Again that is incorrect. This is something that would have been discovered and mentioned as a problem regardless of the ADL.Stacey covered that in her response.

Stephen Newell said...

And you are kidding yourself if you really believe that churches don't fund such efforts
Go back and read it again. I admitted that if a majority of Southern Baptist churches agreed to support it, that was their choice. I don't see why a majority wouldn't, because SBC churches are all about missions at their core, or at least we would hope they are.

Assemblies of God? That's still a missions-minded denomination. As I understand them, they work in a similar manner as the SBC--they want to support the ministry of the local churches. As I said, if a local church (or churches) want to do Jewish missions, and the convention as a whole decides to support it, they will. There's no overt plan to go out and target Jews, despite what you may have heard. Jewish missions are just one of many things the SBC supports.

There is no common ground that can ever be reached here. As long as you continue to disrespect us and target us with proselytization efforts, we will frown up this and resent these completely offensive campaigns.
Then I am sad for you, because you are showing yourself to be just as intolerant and closed-minded as you claim I and other Southern Baptists are.

You are really out there with this one. You think that it is ok to use a term like political Jews and then get upset when I point out that it is a ridiculous term and could be considered racist. A little hypocritical there.
No, I'm not. You're basically saying that it's wrong to use a term like "religious right" or "Southern Baptist" in the manners they're being used here. There's a major difference between those who are politically active in their faith and those who simply go to church on Sunday and live out their lives, and you know it. There's a major difference between the ADL reps and the Jewish family down the street who worships in the local synagogue every Sabbath, and you know this.

Some things are not worth responding to becaus they lack relevance and are immaterial to the discussion.
I'm sorry Jack, but with respect, it seems like you're just burying your head in the sand.

Jack's Shack said...

Go back and read it again. I admitted that if a majority of Southern Baptist churches agreed to support it, that was their choice. I don't see why a majority wouldn't, because SBC churches are all about missions at their core, or at least we would hope they are.

Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself. You said the following:

Nor are there huge and heavily funded organizations whose purpose is to try and convert you,

But in your most recent post you claim that I misunderstood you. I am still not following what you are trying to say. All I know is that there is a consistent, regular and highly organized highly funded effort to convert Jews.

But then you contradict yourself again:
There's no overt plan to go out and target Jews, despite what you may have heard. Jewish missions are just one of many things the SBC supports.

Pick a position because I am confused as to where you stand here. I provided a link with stats that support my remarks about the effort to convert Jews but you ignored it entirely.

Then I am sad for you, because you are showing yourself to be just as intolerant and closed-minded as you claim I and other Southern Baptists are.

You intermix my comments and Stacey's remarks. The comment above was in reference to Stacey's reply about proselytization. If you want common ground you are going to have to come forward and stop the deceptive practices and subterfuge that is used to try and convert others. It is disrespectful and wrong.

I said: You are really out there with this one. You think that it is ok to use a term like political Jews and then get upset when I point out that it is a ridiculous term and could be considered racist. A little hypocritical there.

And you replied with this:

No, I'm not. You're basically saying that it's wrong to use a term like "religious right" or "Southern Baptist" in the manners they're being used here. There's a major difference between those who are politically active in their faith and those who simply go to church on Sunday and live out their lives, and you know it. There's a major difference between the ADL reps and the Jewish family down the street who worships in the local synagogue every Sabbath, and you know this.

Come on now. This started with your remark about "political Jews" making the rest of the Jews look bad. It is a suggestive term and it certainly does not sound as if it is a compliment.

And then you follow it up with a remark that discusses the difference between ADL reps and the Jewish family down the street. That is just plain wrong. What is the difference.

It is as wrong as my saying I hate Blacks who murder but love the others. There is no need for that kind of commentary.


I said: Some things are not worth responding to becaus they lack relevance and are immaterial to the discussion.

And you replied with: I'm sorry Jack, but with respect, it seems like you're just burying your head in the sand.

DJ,
If you are going to make comments like that you need to show what the significance is of the comments that I chose not to respond to. I didn't see anything that was material.

So with respect I ask that you refrain from making such remarks unless you can provide the substance for these.

Thus far you have contradicted yourself and made questionable remarks about Jews.

What am I supposed to think.

Stephen Newell said...

Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself.
How? Let me try this again. The purpose of the SBC is to support the ministry of the local church and to work in partnership between the churches. If a majority of SBC churches vote to support a ministry, then how is that a contradiction?

Please understand that there are thousands of churches in the SBC, the vast majority of which voluntarily pool a certain percentage of their budgets (determined by each individual church, NOT the convention) for the express purpose of this partnership and support. Is it really wrong for the SBC to use these monies to develop programs that facilitate the ministy of the local church, especially in this issue? For the churches to direct this money to be used for supporting Jewish missions in no way implies that we are "out to get you," no matter how you paint it. Yes, I am indirectly addressing your weblink here, and to be direct, such a link just seems designed to further besmirch, inflame, and misrepresent, much as you and others are accusing the SBC of doing. Your weblink gives no clear examples of what you assert Southern Baptists are doing to practice deception and disrespect. You and this weblink have been very vague about this.

You intermix my comments and Stacey's remarks.
That was not my intention nor what I was doing, and I apologize for not marking them by author.

If you want common ground you are going to have to come forward and stop the deceptive practices and subterfuge that is used to try and convert others.
What subterfuge? What deception? The SBC and SBC churches have never hidden this, nor have they hidden the reasons behind evangelism. By standing up and crying out bigotry and trickery, the ADL and others like-minded are deceiving people as to whom the SBC really is. Nothing could be further from the truth--Southern Baptists are not out to deceive people.

It is as wrong as my saying I hate Blacks who murder but love the others. There is no need for that kind of commentary.
Is that really what you think I am saying? If so, then perhaps you need to step back and toss out a little emotion. There is not a racist connotation behind every remark, unlike what some people out there in the world would have us believe. The only really questionable remarks I've seen in this entire discussion are the ones you've made implying racism on my part where none was given. So please excuse me if I felt the need before to call you on this. And it's not a very good way to make a point to someone you disagree with--one who is attempting to dialogue with you--when one cries "racism!" or "intolerance!" in response to their remarks.

Perhaps I should have clarified a little better, because there are "political" Christians as well. There are those who are nothing more than loudmouths and there are those who genuinely want things to be better. The problem is that people hear more from the loudmouths than from those who actually strive for betterment, and it is those loudmouths who do nothing but stir up trouble. Surely you can understand that.

As to the Danny Carlton thing, you began by saying: The Southern Baptists have a track record which demonstrates a complete lack of respect and regard for Judaism.

To which he replied: Give an example...and wanting to tell Jews about Jesus is not a valid example; that simply demonstrates your closed mindedness.

You've not done this at all. The only thing you had to say in response to him was it was basically impossible to believe in Jesus and still be called Jewish. That's not giving any examples of disrespect, that's "attacking it sideways," to use your expression.

Also, are you ignoring the fact that the first Christians were Jews, and that they remained practicing Jews, and that they considered themselves to be Jews (and were intensely proud to be so)?

Jack's Shack said...

DJ,

Some of this is getting tedious. The contradictions are obvious. You said that I was wrong when I said that there were organizations that are specifically targeting Jews for conversion and then you said that there were.

For the churches to direct this money to be used for supporting Jewish missions in no way implies that we are "out to get you," no matter how you paint it.

Of course it does. How is the money being used, to try and convert Jews. This couldn't be more obvious.
Yes, I am indirectly addressing your weblink here, and to be direct, such a link just seems designed to further besmirch, inflame, and misrepresent, much as you and others are accusing the SBC of doing. Your weblink gives no clear examples of what you assert Southern Baptists are doing to practice deception and disrespect. You and this weblink have been very vague about this.

Then you obviously didn't spend much time parsing through it. Jews for Judaism provides more support to what I have been saying. It discusses the organizations that are specifically targeting Jews and spells out some of the tactics that are used.
What subterfuge? What deception? The SBC and SBC churches have never hidden this, nor have they hidden the reasons behind evangelism. By standing up and crying out bigotry and trickery, the ADL and others like-minded are deceiving people as to whom the SBC really is. Nothing could be further from the truth--Southern Baptists are not out to deceive people.

This is getting to be silly, but here is another example for you. It is deceptive and patently false to try and tell people that they can be a Jewish Christian. No such thing exists in the world.

Yet it is used to try and make people feel more comfortable with coming over to your side.

As for Danny Carlton that again is a silly argument, but just for kicks let's go at it again.

It is disrespectful to stand outside of Jewish events and proselytize. It is offensive to do so at schools and it is offensive to do so during the holiest times of year for us but that is glossed over by many evangelicals.

Also, are you ignoring the fact that the first Christians were Jews, and that they remained practicing Jews, and that they considered themselves to be Jews (and were intensely proud to be so)?

That is really not material to this discussion which is really based upon modern practices. The only link to that is that I said that the church has a long history of antisemitism that plays into the lack of trust many of us feel.

There has been a real effort to improve interfaith relations but the attitude and approach of many of the organizations and people involved in witnessing do nothing but damage it.